Curse

Adam of Tyria · Mar 12, 2008, 09:44 PM // 21:44

Also, I have been not able to join many PvP guilds. I have all the title reqs, but not mic sadly.

Pandora Swiftblade · Mar 12, 2008, 10:03 PM // 22:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lady Lozza

Pandora, Rednova - this is not meant as a dig, but I really have to ask what is your stance on non-christians getting kicked from a christian guild?

I will not surmise under what misapprehensions people were under when you got kicked. I will not debate bad behaviour of anyone else towards you because of your faith. However the debate regarding guilds of "religious" bent has come up before and many people have debated the right to be in a guild with "like-minded" individuals. To suggest then that a guild non-religious in nature should accept those of a/any faith into their midst is a slight double standard.

Take the OP. He is openly homosexual. He'd be like a fish-out-of-water in a conservative guild. He'd possibly feel uncomfortable, and they'd definately feel uncomfortable. And while I think they need to get over it, freedom of religion (above all else) gives them the right to be as discriminatory as they wish (without descending into abuse) because their religion states that he is "evil" and no one can prevent them from following the edicts of their religion - provided it does not include illegal activities.

I suppose what I'm saying is that it is hard to balance religion (not faith) and freedom of expression. And many people simply believe that faith and religion are the same thing. It has little to do with education. People are not (always) stupid or dumb for fearing that a "christain" is likely to be a problem in a more liberal guild. What is has to do with is perception. People of sense will accept those who don't show adversion to their own principles - birds of a feather flock together.

Of your particular circumstances, I certainly cannot comment. But perhaps this is some food for thought.

The stero-type that gets me is the "ghay" one because everyone knows that "ghay is like... like bad".

I don't think non Christians should be kicked from a Christian guild. As long as the are not bringing negative factors into the guild, such as breaking rules a Christian guild might have (ex. no cussing in alliance or guild chat). Once they start breaking those rules, then yes, they would and should be kicked. I am not in a Christian guild, I don't bring religion into GW, or try to force it on anyone. I am what I am and I know I'm right, everyone else can be whatever they want.

DarkFlame · Mar 12, 2008, 10:35 PM // 22:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by naughteblonde

Wonderful world we live in where we have to hide to prevent being victimised rather than actually dealing with the person who is doing the abusing.
The situation cant improve until we look at the attitudes that requires the victim to compensate or take responsibility for the attacker.
Nobody deserves to be targetted for any kind of abuse regardless of sex, sexuality, race, religion, disability or age nor should they be required to admit a fault in not hiding those facts if they are a victim of abuse due to them.
Unfortunately it seems that the game will reflect RL in this case.

No, no one should ever be a target of abuse for any reason and no one should ever have to hide the things that make a person who they are. But face it, its an online community(and I would use that word loosely) where the attacker never has to meet up with their victims and almost never has to face any consequences. No amount of reasoning/shouting back will change their attitudes or behaviors short of convincing them to let you talk to their mothers/grandmothers so that they can get a good spanking/cane in the head. Just report them, put them on ignore and move on. They really are just not worth getting angry over and all the energy thats wasted on them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dylananimus

So, let's say I'm in a PuG and somebody (as they often, often, often do) starts saying things like "dying like that is so gay", "wow, this is gay", "you're all gay"...I - as a gay woman - am meant to ignore it and not say "hey, that's kind of offensive to me can you knock it off"? Because let me tell you, I WILL tell them to stop, and then they DO start rubbing it in MY face about how wrong/vile/evil/dirty I am.

And I would do the same as you and tell them to shut up. They should be ashamed of themselves for talking in such a way, regardless of the audience. And yet I don't suffer the same backlash you seem to, because it either ends there or I walk away. I don't need that grief and I don't want it and no amount of time just spent/reward is worth any of it. You know their next question would be "What are you, gay?" And if I say yes, I'll get vilified; if I say no, I get called a conservative prude. Idiots like that are just looking for a fight regardless of what the differences are and I don't have to become their victim.

Quote:

People need to learn to be tolerant (at least, though acceptance is better), and that won't come about if gay people continue to be expected to "keep quiet about it'.

And again I agree, but there is a time and place for this. Vetting it out with some unknown guy behind a computer in some unknown part of the world isn't it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kusandaa

I haven't changed between the moment I was doing the action and the moment I came out to you. It's how I got over the realization I was gay - I haven't changed. I'm not more feminine and I didn't develop a lisp in 20 seconds... if I did I'd have been hella worried. O_o.

I find the reverse also to be true. Idiots and bigots don't become idiots and bigots at the flick of a switch. Their actions and behaviors are there at the very start. They're gonna be a problem people so why spend that much time with them.

Koudelka · Mar 12, 2008, 10:53 PM // 22:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kusandaa

As most people know by now (we even consider it as a scientific fact in the HiDE alliance), I'm openly gay and I'll die before hiding it >_>. I'm provoking at times and I talk a lot. If you join as a PUG in a mostly alliance group, you'll know it at some point. Now to this, I've had reactions ranging from "OMFG STAY AWAY FROM ME U HOMO!!!!!!" to "I'm about to squee my pants off, a gay guy!

". I've had ragequits because I'm gay. And some people change attitudes really fast, and it does bother me a lot.

Over a year back, I was in ToPK. Started chatting to this other Quebecer (I can't remember my position within the group, but he was complimenting me and such, and I was happy I had found someone in the same area!). I said something about my boyfriend (who's now my husband) outta nowhere and the guy starts raging at me really bad. His attitude changed from "oh wow you're a nice guy!" to "GO **** YOURSELF UR SICK GET TREATED" within maybe 20 seconds. He eventually rage-quit. Such things tend to leave me sour, as I haven't changed between the moment I was doing the action and the moment I came out to you. It's how I got over the realization I was gay - I haven't changed. I'm not more feminine and I didn't develop a lisp in 20 seconds... if I did I'd have been hella worried. O_o.

You. Are. QTF. So true!

I HATE it when people throw the word "gay" and "fag" around in Guild Wars and beyond, it is plain ignorant. I didn't think I would actually post this on a Guild Wars forum... but... lol... here goes:

The people that know the most about me, actually, are the people I don't see in rl. My alliance knows about my sexuality, and are fine with it. More than fine, really. It's as though I'm not, if you get what I mean. It might be because they're relatively young, and have yet to be exposed to homophobia, I really don't know. The alliance leader... god... lol... I think he was the first person I told about it. Years ago. He lives across the Atlantic in America, so I suppose I felt most comfortable telling a close friend, who couldn't exactly waltz into school and blurt it out everywhere.

We do get a lot of... special... members of our alliance. We (literally) had a Neo-Nazi who used to call me the "Gay Englishman" (two annoying statements in one!) which was slightly flattering at first, but later developed into "did you know, a fag is...". My alliance leader kicked him, so it's cool ^^. To answer your question, no, I'm not really discriminated against on a day to day basis because no-one knows who I don't trust, virtually.

I am pretty shy about it. In RL atm of course I can't just come out; I go to the kind of school where this sort of behavior has you hanging on a tree by breaktime (this is England). Sure, there are loads of girls that have come out, but it's not the same... I can't quite explain it. I have one RL friend who knows about it, and I have absolutely NO IDEA why I open up to her.

My very close friend, since we were 6 or so (plays GW) doesn't know about it. After mum threw me out the house when she found out it's not like I go around waving a banner about it.

Anyway, enough about my personal life. In GW, I'm not really open about it. Because I play as a female char virtually 24/7 no one really asks about your sexuality. From my personal experience, people are more shocked and disgusted at a gay man, rather than a woman. As you said, that guy either inherited or developed very homophobic views, that clouded his judgement.

As for being open in a PUG, I'd scream my sexuality in all chat LA anyday rather than tell my friend-for-life, you know? To answer your question, no, I'm not really discriminated against on a day to day basis because no-one knows who I don't trust, virtually.

This thread is FTW. Thanks for posting it

.

AshenX · Mar 12, 2008, 11:10 PM // 23:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dylananimus

Freedom of speech doesn't give you the right to abuse anybody or anything that doesn't fit into you ideal little world of self-involved idiocy.

First of congratulations not only on finding someone but on finding a gamer (I know, I am similarly lucky). Unfortunately I have to somewhat disagree with the quoted part of your statement. Freedom of speech exists to allow for the expression of thoughts, emotions, etc regardless of whether or not we agree with them.

I will not tolerate another attempting to silence my very socially liberal (but financially conservative) views and similarly not want for another, whose views contradict mine, to be silenced regardless of how hurtful those views or opinions might be.

Dylananimus · Mar 12, 2008, 11:14 PM // 23:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Biostem

I'm a little confused - how do these topics come up? You would have to volunteer information about your own race, religion, sexual orientation, etc, in order for someone else to then respond to it (either negatively or positively).

Frankly, I play GW to get away from real life worries, and so I prefer to "keep on topic", as it were - doing missions, fighting monsters, etc.

Do most people bring up these topics or are they responding to them?

I would think most things get brought up if you respond to a particular comment one way or another, or are asked a direct question

I don't think anybody goes into a PuG announcing "I'm gay", or "I'm black", or "hey...give me crap cos I'm a girl" -_-

During play though (at least amongst talkative people or a very long mission or similar) often things are said by others that make you respond in a way that will indeed give away your gender or ethnicity, or sexual preferance. If somebody is being racist and you're black...surely it's within your right to say they should stop it as they are playing with a black person. Same if it's a girl, or gay person, etc.

Offhand comments about armor, or likes and dislikes can bring about question that require you to be more open than you might normally be with a PuG. I've been on male char and the conversation has swayed towards some very anti-female stuff...so I'll ask for them not to be like that, so you get asked if you're a girl. Why should I lie and say no??

I've been playing and commented on a weapon or similar that I like. Or told somebody I've liked their pink armor...and being on a male character I was asked if I was some kind of fa***t. In that situation you're kind of forced to defend yourself by being truthfull, or at least asking them to stop using abusive words, etc.

Get real...you think people are walking around in game just asking for abuse? No...but why should we hide? Why do all the 'normal', straight, white, male people get to trip through the game without fear of being 'found out' to be anything other than what people expect. It's 2008, not 1950. Nobody should have to feel they can't just be themselves and talk freely...just like everybody else does.

Res Ipsi · Mar 13, 2008, 12:01 AM // 00:01

Quote:

Freedom of speech exists to allow for the expression of thoughts, emotions, etc regardless of whether or not we agree with them.

This would be fine if Freedom of Speech was guaranteed by the EULA, which it is not. In any event, to express views that are racist, sexist, etc., shows complete lack of respect for other humans. From my experience, such attitudes usually reflect a lack of education, experience, and/or common sense.

Kusandaa · Mar 13, 2008, 12:05 AM // 00:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dylananimus

Offhand comments about armor, or likes and dislikes can bring about question that require you to be more open than you might normally be with a PuG. I've been on male char and the conversation has swayed towards some very anti-female stuff...so I'll ask for them not to be like that, so you get asked if you're a girl. Why should I lie and say no??

I've been playing and commented on a weapon or similar that I like. Or told somebody I've liked their pink armor...and being on a male character I was asked if I was some kind of fa***t. In that situation you're kind of forced to defend yourself by being truthfull, or at least asking them to stop using abusive words, etc.

I've had a guy coming up to me and saying "lol look, a gay necro", my necro having pink armor... which is, BTW, totally unrelated to my homosexuality (just think it looks cool on him). My reply: "Well I'm really gay, haha". I didn't even feel offended. I had a most likely friendly "lol" from the guy, but another started to argue about it... and it took epic proportions as one guy started preaching to an audience made partially outta very religious folks, and completely atheist people (and then the middle options). It was rather weird, and I kept quiet for a while, not sure what I was gonna reply.

It's that simple to trigger a response from them. But I wonder why, and there's most likely another answer than the anonymimity factor.

Jake_Steel · Mar 13, 2008, 12:05 AM // 00:05

"Freedom of Speech" applies to the United States of America. Anyone who whines about "Freedom of Speech" ANYWHERE on the internet is a douchebag and an idiot.

There is no "internet freedom of speech" The internet is NOT the United States of America, nor is Tyria, Elona and Cantha the 51st, 52nd and 53rd states.

Turtle222 · Mar 13, 2008, 01:00 AM // 01:00

i generally despise those that blurt out their sexual orientation, hatred for other races etc and are extremely defensive/take everything in the wrong way. Solution? don't tell me. Trust me, i do NOT want to know about your life as it can be as easily fabricated as superman's haircut. i prefer to play the game, and relax

it may sound pompous, but my judgements and assumptions about a person from the first few words he or she types are infallible.

Chronos the Defiler · Mar 13, 2008, 01:10 AM // 01:10

Gotta be careful what you say in this thread...we don't want to start anything serious.

I was kicked from my previous guild because of...well I am not sure, they said I was "not a team player", but I think the reason lied more in tune with the fact the 2 "head-honchoes" of the guild started to not like me because I was being more of a leader than the actual leader, and he didn't like that I guess :/ (I was questioning the leaders methods in GvGs etc...and trying to incorporate my own strategies)

Nevin · Mar 13, 2008, 01:14 AM // 01:14

If I ever pug, or decide to play with other players. I'm usually cautious of overly "pro" players (ie: Chaos Gloves, FoW armor, Etc Etc) and overly "nub" players (ie: Level 17 at a level 20 Mission)

Taurucis · Mar 13, 2008, 01:20 AM // 01:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jake_Steel

"Freedom of Speech" applies to the United States of America. Anyone who whines about "Freedom of Speech" ANYWHERE on the internet is a douchebag and an idiot.

There is no "internet freedom of speech" The internet is NOT the United States of America, nor is Tyria, Elona and Cantha the 51st, 52nd and 53rd states.

You might be free to do something, but that doesn't mean that it's a smart thing to do. Like you have the freedom to douse yourself in gasoline and play with matches, but that's not the brightest thing to try.

Same with posting sexist, racist, homophobic, or outright rude stuff online... you can do it, but you're going to get repercussions. And you probably won't like them.

enter_the_zone · Mar 13, 2008, 02:25 AM // 02:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by flclisgreat

change the outspoken part to, i avoid all human beings as much as possible. and thats me

lol, me too. I just don't shut up when I have no choice but to associate

Lyonette · Mar 13, 2008, 05:17 AM // 05:17

People love to speak their mind, and in an environment which allows people to remain as anonymous as they want, it gives them the courage to really say want they want to say without having the backlash [if it gets bad, just log-off right?].

It's like one day, I zoned into Lions Arch with my male Paragon, there was a group of lively male Warriors' chatting and such, and one of them made a homophobic jeer at my Paragon which I laughed off and replied with "Uhh duh? So?". This time, the "wamos" turned out to be a happy go lucky bunch an laughed it off.

It used to bother me whenever I saw someone use "gay" as a negative response to things, but honestly it really doesn't bother me as much, if I feel like it, I'll reply, but honestly I've learnt that in online environments such as these, it's much better off to stick to your own devices and if you are reading Local Chat, take what's said with a grain of salt or leave. The arguments usually escalate because several people have points which they think are important and desperately need to get them across.

I've not really experiences large amounts of discrimination in game, I guess I'm lucky or maybe my tolerance level is higher than most?

If someone does happen to make gay comments, I'll usually play up to it an it quietens them down pretty quickly, lol...

PyrAnkh · Mar 13, 2008, 07:37 AM // 07:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Metalmaster

I remember the photo. You are too good-looking to play computer games, so it's obviously a fake

O_o. Well ill take that as a compliment then....lol

And i like to think im an okay warrior lol...my main is a warrior.

Tatile · Mar 13, 2008, 08:05 AM // 08:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jake_Steel

"Freedom of Speech" applies to the United States of America. Anyone who whines about "Freedom of Speech" ANYWHERE on the internet is a douchebag and an idiot.

There is no "internet freedom of speech" The internet is NOT the United States of America, nor is Tyria, Elona and Cantha the 51st, 52nd and 53rd states.

Actually I think the UN also has, under the Human Rights Act, a section on Freedom of Speech, obviously though it doesn't apply to the Internet. Many people seem to forget that the Internet isn't solely Americans (look at Kentucky, that was awesome XD) and start spouting about the First Amendment out of ignorance (curse the importation of American culture that I know what that is without studying it).

That being said, it's generally excepted that on forum boards and in games you have an amount of free speech within the guidelines imposed by the Admins. This does of course mean that you can get racist forum boards, but generally the guidelines are about normal human decency.

P.S. Long live Mill's ideas, even if I don't agree with some. The man was a visionary really, with really bad grammar.

upier · Mar 13, 2008, 08:22 AM // 08:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taurucis

This is the kind of stereotypes that female GW players have to put up with. People think that we can't play GW just because we're female.

AMAGAD!
But he R right! Womens can't think! They R lack a brain!1!
What!??! You R saying teh brain isn't located in teh penis?!?
Who R telling jokes now!??!?

Surena · Mar 13, 2008, 08:26 AM // 08:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam of Tyria

Because you actually take that much time to do things, in a, oh idk....a GAME. Social life > Title farming in gw,

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam of Tyria

Also, I have been not able to join many PvP guilds. I have all the title reqs, but not mic sadly.

So you have enough time for your social life but not a few bucks to get a mic? Something's very wrong.

Dr Strangelove · Mar 13, 2008, 08:27 AM // 08:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turtle222

i generally despise those that blurt out their sexual orientation, hatred for other races etc and are extremely defensive/take everything in the wrong way. Solution? don't tell me. Trust me, i do NOT want to know about your life as it can be as easily fabricated as superman's haircut. i prefer to play the game, and relax

Idle conversation happens when you're having spending time with people, and it's pretty natural to drop information that could let someone know you're female/gay/overly fond of chinese food. The idea is that they shouldn't have to work to hide a major portion of their identity, just like you don't work to hide your gender/orientation.

Take a look through Kusaanda's posts. Unless I've missed something, he's never posted something like "HALLELUJAH IT'S RAINING MEN!". Rather, he refers to his husband and such. It's sort of a major detail about a person, and it's a little screwed up to stick a don't ask/don't tell policy into online interactions.

As for myself - I don't get why people get so worked up about other people's business. Other people's baggage is enveloped by a somebody else's problem field, I have no reason to want to change it until it affects me. Homosexuality just isn't a problem unless another guy starts doing the naked macarena in my apartment, and then only if he's blocking the TV.